I wouldn’t exactly call what is happening a meltdown, perhaps more of a collective moment of clarity. Now on Reddit’s r / teslamotors forum there is an intense and very serious conversation about the now $ 10,000 level 2 driver assist package that Tesla is calling ‘Full Self-Driving’ (FSD) – specifically whether the features Tesla and Elon Musk started out in 2016 show promise, ever will actually exist, and what legal exposure Tesla will have if it doesn’t deliver. People have put down real money and haven’t gotten what they expected yet, which has led to these tough conversations.
The original poster said they were motivated to start the thread because of Ford PR Representative Mike Levine’s description of Tesla’s “FSD” system as “vaporware”, which had sparked much debate about the status of “FSD” as vaporware or not within the Tesla community.
Here’s how the poster explains it:
Seriously: What’s Tesla’s exposure if FSD doesn’t make it to owner?
This may not be the right forum, but I’m curious if anyone has done a semi-academic study on the legal and financial exposure to Tesla and maybe Elon himself as the FSD keeps pushing? I understand this is a complicated question as Tesla itself is not overly candid and the reasons for pushing can vary wildly from bugs to government intervention.
I am often chastised by other owners for having a serious rather than optimistic view of the company, but it seems to me that the FSD pre-sale is a contractual obligation for a specific set of functions and that at some point failure to comply with those promises is a breach of contract that is subject not only to refunds, but also fines and other legal action
This is a perfectly valid question to ask, especially if you’ve coughed up ten thousand (plus the cost of the car) for a range of technological possibilities that you have yet to see. However, the OP is not only concerned about this; they are also concerned about the potential liability for Tesla as a company if it fails to deliver on its “FSD” promises.
There is also a lot of talk about what exactly Tesla is promising if you pre-order “FSD”, although this shouldn’t really cause much discussion as Tesla’s own website explains it quite clearly:
“All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future to be fully self-driving in almost all conditions. The system is designed to cover short and long distances without the need for the person in the driver’s seat to act.
All you need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car looks at your calendar and takes you there as the supposed destination or just home if nothing is on the agenda. Your Tesla calculates the optimal route, navigates urban streets (even without lane markings), manages complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handles densely packed highways with high-speed cars. When you arrive at your destination, just get off at the entrance and your car will go into parking search mode, automatically search for a place and park itself. A tap on your phone calls it back to you.
The future use of these features without supervision is contingent on achieving reliability far beyond that of human drivers, as evidenced by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving capabilities are introduced, your car will be continuously upgraded via over-the-air software updates. “
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This certainly sounds like full level 5 autonomy, with descriptions such as “The system is designed to cover short and long distances without the person in the driver’s seat having to do anything” and “All you have to do is get in and tell your car where to go.”
The system is nowhere near that.
Other parts of Tesla’s site split “FSD” into seven different modules:
Many of the comments suggest that class action lawsuits are possible, despite Tesla’s legal disclaimers, in part because Elon Musk’s tweets and other comments about “FSD” capabilities and timeline make many very specific claims:
“A big, fat group action. Tesla’s disclaimers don’t protect them from legal action, especially given Elon’s tweets. “
An example of an Elon tweet could be this one from 2018:
Okay, he covered himself with “probably” there, but inside this earnings call in the fourth quarter of 2019, he said
“We drive completely self-driving this year. This year the car will be able to find you without intervention in a parking lot, pick you up and take you all the way to your destination. I’m sure of it. That’s not a question mark. It’s essentially safe to fall asleep and wake up at their destination by the end of next year. “
Yes, you may not be sleeping in your Tesla yet.
The mention of “regulators” in the above tweet is also notable, because of how often the concept of regulatory delays seems to come up when Tesla talks about “FSD”.
Her mentioned a number of times in the Reddit discussion, and Tesla’s website alludes to the idea that regulatory issues are holding back ‘FSD’, at the beginning of a video showing the capabilities of “FSD”:
The problem is, as also stated in that Reddit thread, there are currently no federal regulations regarding self-driving vehiclesSome states have regulations, but many of those states, including Florida and Michigan, allow autonomous vehicles to be driven on public roads. Tennessee even has legislation prohibit local authorities from banning AVs.
If something is preventing “FSD” from being delivered, it’s not the government.
What makes this thread interesting is that it is a good reminder that, as much as we may talk about hardcore, cult-esque Tesla Stans, of course, the actual owners are by no means a monolithic block.
This thread reads like many intelligent disposable income folks who want to see autonomous vehicles hit the market and made a hopeful, expensive decision to rely on what they were told was coming. Now they are not so sure.
Of course, there are also ardent Tesla defenders, even those who seem to have a fairly clear picture of the situation:
“I agree that Elon was overly optimistic about the state of Full Self Driving. However, it’s clear to me (or at least it was) that I paid for a set of really neat driver automation features with an absolutely great ADAS with the potential to get even more driver automation up to L5 when it becomes available.
I think the stomach acid around this feature really comes from the name of the feature. FSD and Autopilot are crazy optimistic names for what they currently offer. But that’s what I love about Tesla and why I bought one (and later stock in the company). They make moonshots in so many places. The Model 3’s interior is dead simple because it’s built for a non-drive universe. Same deal for the Model S and its integrated yoke and Smart Shift. YOU to have to do crazy things to realize the future. “
So this commenter agrees that the names Autopilot and “FSD” are “crazy optimistic,” but thinks that’s something they “love about Tesla.”
On a certain moment, the OP is asked “what is your goal”, to which they respond
“The discussion of FSD status, timeframe and whether progress is reasonable has been here and elsewhere many times. I find it usually turns into a screaming match between the two groups that are well represented here, namely the multitude of people who border on Elon worshipers and those who feel disadvantaged / deceived by him. I experienced something similar in an FB thread for my local Tesla owner’s group just two days ago.
I’m trying to make a more thoughtful evaluation of what’s going on from a non-technical perspective. In particular, I am trying to determine in my own mind whether what is going on here is reasonable and justified or whether something shameful is going on. It is easy to make accusations about this or draw conclusions based on biased prejudices. I hope to be more factual about it. “
I’ve tried to quote some key parts here, but I think if you’re remotely interested in the development of Autonomy and Tesla in particular, this is a very interesting thread to read.
So much is happening here and so many questions are being asked. Is “FSD” a really serious project with real goals and results, or an elaborate scam to get a lot of money and deliver nothing?
Is it real, but just very behind schedule and suffering from Elon’s frequent overhyping and promising? Like it when he claimed that Tesla’s assets were valuing because they could soon be making money for their owners as self-driving robotaxis?
Would buyers of “FSD” pre-orders be able to file a class action lawsuit if the promised capabilities are not delivered? Is Tesla protected against this? Would it paralyze the company?
There are so many questions, and really not many answers, at least not yet. However, it is good that the discussion is ongoing as all of these issues need to be addressed.