Last year, as the pandemic started to shut down blockbusters one by one, and movies either shut down production or left their release dates over and over, Zendaya called Euphoria director Sam Levinson and asked if, somewhere, they could record a movie in her house.
The end result of that phone call, as well as many script revisions and Covid tests, is Malcolm and Marie, the story of an evening when a couple returns home from a movie premiere and follows an epic, hours-long discussion. The story was inspired by Levinson who forgot to thank his wife at the premiere of his own movie, something he certainly did when we spoke on Zoom earlier this month.
Levinson is best known for HBOs Euphoria, an adolescent study that leans towards the shocking and sad moments of growing up, and the series for which Zendaya won a historic Emmy for lead character Rue last year.
Malcolm & Marie puts the audience in the middle of the fray as the pair exchange minor insults and deeper blows in a debate over authenticity, respect, ownership and the nature of criticism. Malcolm becomes enraged by a review – admittedly a good one – published that night, and begins a rant about how the ‘white lady joined the LA Times“doesn’t understand him or his job. Since then, the question has been whether Levinson alludes to Katie Walsh, a ‘white lady at the LA Times‘who gave his 2018 film Assassination Nation a bad review.
Levinson spoke with Esquire about the repercussions on the criticism in the film, the logistics and emotions that come with making art isolated, and what we mean but don’t say in arguments.
Esquire: The movie has the feeling of claustrophobia that we’ve all lived with. Do you think the idea would have occurred to you if it hadn’t been for the pandemic?
Sam Levinson: Definitely not. I think because of the restrictions Covid put on us, we had to reverse engineer this movie and work out the story we could tell in those circumstances. So it’s two people, one location, no place to go, not a ton of costume changes. I think it is unique because of the limitations of the world we were living in at the time.
What other practical logistics were there?
Our Covid protocol, which was quite strict given the early onset of the pandemic. We consulted with epidemiologists and doctors to find and implement the most extreme rules. We found this farm in Carmel with all these separate units where people could quarantine individually without coming into contact with each other, and so we did the first ten days before we started shooting while we were being tested. There was no script supervisor, no first AD, no real props department, Z did her own hair and makeup, and there was no schedule. John David, Zendaya, myself and our cameraman Marcell [Rév] were able to really dive into the material for those ten days, breaking down every scene and line.
How was it different working with Zendaya compared to Euphoria?
I think we both challenge each other to get better and do better. I’ve always relied on her instincts because I think she’s so smart not only as an actor but also as a producer, so it was a really easy process. John David was the first person I thought of. I called him up, read him a few pages and he got excited. It was this ongoing dialogue until the day we arrived and during the recordings.
The film provokes discussion about the role of film critics and whether they can determine what the director meant, where did that idea come from?
Good [Malcolm’s] a filmmaker and because the film he made is about Marie, although he doesn’t give her credit for it, it became an interesting angle to explore their relationship through this existing work of art that is separate from [them]. Malcolm gets such a great, glowing review from the critic, but not the way he wants it. It completely dismantles him as a character and gets to the root of his narcissism.
Marie shares the same criticism as the critic of Malcolm’s film, but goes one step further and says, “My problem with you as a filmmaker is my problem with you as a person.” It comes to the idea that if we cannot hear criticism, we cannot grow as artists and people.
Do you think it’s a challenging film to review because it is critical of critics?
I don’t know why, because Marie agrees with with the critic and therefore I don’t necessarily know why it would be difficult to judge in that sense. I’m not sure everyone sees it that way, but it’s an absurd scene at its core. I always go back to the idea that Marie agrees with with the critic! I think it’s pretty clear that Marie is the appeal of the whole play and she is what holds it all together, whether she got the credit for it or not.
Their argument always feels like a threat at the door that returns, how have you balanced that with the more romantic and joyful moments?
It’s one of the reasons we decided to shoot it in sequence so we were building the tension and then let the air out a bit. That there could be a moment that was tender and could bring a little relief, and then suddenly it returns. Basically it’s this messy debate, [so] we had to make sure we recorded the story in a way that felt like it was going somewhere. The same was true of shooting in one place, we had to let the house unfold so it didn’t feel like we were repeating ourselves.
There’s a point where Malcolm rages about the fact that movies by black directors or about black people are always seen as about race. Was that something you had heard from black filmmakers?
It’s kind of clear in film criticism and history. Do the right thing was originally received by certain New York critics at the time as a call to violence, and that Spike Lee was not just making a bad movie, but an irresponsible one, and shouldn’t be released. You look back and think, “Who was right?” There is a tendency among the establishment, and I mean white critics of the establishment, to categorize and talk about things in ways that can sometimes speak of their own importance. [Films are] so ‘important’ that suddenly nobody wants to see anymore [them] because it feels like homework.
Were you afraid of expressing that as a white filmmaker?
No, because I have faith in the collaborative process and in my partners that if I write something that doesn’t feel true, JD or Z don’t respond or feel to be honest, they’re going to say something and we’ll get it right. In that sense I had no fear because I have too much respect for the collaborative nature of film making.
Did that kind of collaboration lead to improvised moments during filming?
We did eleven-minute recordings that were choreographed in a very specific way, so naturally there were times when life and certain ad-libs seeped into the dialogue. Those are the things that you are so grateful for because it gives it that feeling of looseness and life that you are always trying to find.
The ending is a moment we can’t hear because we’ve been in the middle of battle for so long, did you think it was important to leave things unresolved in a sense?
I like the idea that it’s this ongoing conversation about how we express gratitude and respect for the people in our lives who make us better. It’s something they’ll either find out about or not, but it’s something we need to consider in all relationships and be aware of the work and collaboration of those we love.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity
Malcolm & Marie is now on Netflix
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